Tuesday, August 19, 2008

CC pwned Cecil

So much for the sweep...huh Cecil? Congratulations on your first Billups of the Week win.

As far as Brewer games go...that was about as fun as one can get to watch. 2 out- run scoring hits, home runs, and a dominant performance by the Guerranimal that is CC Sabathia. I can't even adequately express in words how awesome this guy is. Dude's a freaking beast.

The only armchair manager decision in question about that game was the fact that CC went back out to finish off the game in the 9th inning, holding a 7 run lead and with an already high pitch count. We already know that WV doesn't like it...but what do you guys think?

I wouldn't have minded if he would have gotten pulled, but I also like the fact that he finished it off. That is 5 complete games in 9 starts for the Crew. What he is doing is incredible. If he keeps up his pace, this mid-season acquisition will be remembered for a very long time. And you know what...the MAN himself says he's ok.

“It’s not that big a deal,” Sabathia said of his pitch count, which tied for the second-highest in the NL this season. “I knew I had an extra day (before pitching again).”


So there you go. A Ryan Braun "It doesn't matter I own you all" type of comment. CC gets an extra day off this week with the off days. Then he's going to come back out and pitch another complete game. That is what soul owners do.

71 comments:

Anonymous said...

I think CC promised Ned 5% of his next deal if he lets him stay in games, pump up his numbers and get about 10 CGs before the season is over.

Wrigleyville said...

it does feel similar to prior in '03, though obviously they are different pitchers and pitchers break for different reasons.

mark prior in '03: threw 100+ pitches in 26 of 30 starts, including over 120 nine times (including 5 of last 6 starts).

Wrigleyville said...

The Washington Post did a story on heavy workloads for pitchers last year:

Teams whose workhorse starting pitchers carry them deep into October typically see them regress the following year. In fact, of the 30 pitchers who threw 240 or more innings in a season between 2001 and '05, the vast majority (21 pitchers, or 70 percent) saw their ERAs rise the following season -- and 11 of them experienced a jump of at least one full run. Still others experienced arm injuries the year after their high-workload season.

CC is at 195 right now (after 241 last year). his era jumped while with cleveland after the heavy workload, then plummeted with the move to the NL ... so that doesn't really prove anything.

my larger question last night, though, was: why? better safe than sorry, one would think.

Matt said...

I, for one, was confused by CC going back out for the 9th.

Hardy and Durham butchering those ground balls didn't help the pitch count, either.

Anonymous said...

It was irresponsible and an unnecessary risk on the part of the coaching staff.

Get someone in there that could use the work with a big lead (i.e. Mota, Gagne, etc.)

AP said...

To some extent, I do agree that if CC feels fine doing this and he has an extra days rest, then what the hell why not let him do it?

The problem is the guy's chasing down a contract worth well over 100 million dollars next year. If they stay with the 5 man rotation like they have so far and don't rearrange due to the off days, CC's only going to pitch in 7 more games this year. It's only 6 games really, since there's a good chance he'd get skipped for the final game of the season VS the Cubs if that game doesn't matter. In those 6 games, he'd face the Pirates twice and SD once as well.

The point is, of course the guy is going to say he's fine even if he was not. He might only throw 700 more pitches this year, & no offense to Bucs' and Padres' fans but half of those pitches are going to be against...well....bad teams. If that was all that stood between a marquis pitcher and 150 million, I'd say, "I'm good....I feel fine" all the time too even if my arm was falling off.

I'd share WV's concern a little bit, but it's not really like Prior because he's basically a rented player for us. If CC gets his huge contract w/ a different team in '09, the Crew makes the playoffs this year and two years from now CC needs Tommy John, it well have a happy ending for us & CC just not for the team that signed him. Still, both CC and the Brewers end up OK. It's not like Prior because in that situation the Brewers wouldn't spend the next 6 years pining for CC to come back healthy whilst looking back fondly on the good ol' days hoping CC can get back to form from like 10 seasons ago after numerous injuries.

Christ WV, your team rode Wood & Prior into the ground, and then wouldn't let it go for like a decade after the two were essentially camped out in the doctor's office. We've had CC for like 20 minutes and he hasn't even been hurt yet and he's not or financial problem in '09 and you're preaching to us to be more conservative with him? Christ again....

brad said...

CC does have a post season ERA of 7.17 (21.1 inning). Maybe he does wear down at the end of the year and could use all the rest he can get right now.

D'Amico's one good year said...

Am I irrationally worried about Braun's back/ribs? Injuries in that area tend to be more chronic, especially in baseball...

Wrigleyville said...

um, ap, i'm not lecturing. i'm asking, "what the hell is ned doing?"

as i said above, prior and cc are obviously different players, but why in the world would the brewers not want to conserve CC as much as possible going into the stretch run? save an inning or two - and 30 or 40 pitches - here and there to make sure he is fresh come late september when there are big games against the cubs?

there is a very real possibility those games could be the difference between the playoffs or not for the brewers.

last night's game was clearly going to be a win, and ned sent him out there for what turned out to be a very difficult, 20-pitch ninth inning to bring his total to 130. and left him in after he loaded the bases. twice.

are you so argumentative that you can't see that maybe, just maybe, that the brewers are going to be better served by resting him a little going into the stretch run?

as for not caring whether he needs tommy john in a year or two - stay classy, brewers fans.

AP said...

I'm sure he (CC) doesn't care if he needs Tommy John provided his contract is for 14, followed by 7 zeroes, and then million dollars. The looming payday is potentially a factor in his desire to want to pitch so much.

And, again WV, I do share some of your concern. For that game, it was wrong and that was one instance. However, you also keep pointing out his pitch counts in previous starts where he averaged like 110 pitches. That's being a little argumentative also, don't you think? Where's the outcry for Roy Halladay? I think I read that Zambrano is in the top 5 of number of pitches thrown in all of baseball over the last 5 seasons. Why don't the Cubs start pulling him after the 4th inning a few times? Answer: Because, it's really neat to win baseball games.

Wrigleyville said...

you will remember that three of those five years ... z had dusty as his manager. so, yes, his pitch counts are going to be high for a five-year window. they are significantly lower this year.

for example, lou pulled z after 5 (and 82 pitches) with a big lead three starts ago - and the cubs won. and it was a good idea, especially since z is one of his yearly down cycles when he appears to be worn down midseason ...

or let's look at harden: they've only let him go over 100 pitches twice since he came to the cubs. lou takes him out early out of an abundance of caution. he is obviously a special case, with his injury history, but they are playing for october by keeping him rested and fresh...

or dempster: he just went 6 innings in a blowout win against the marlins on sunday...

and, finally, are you really saying that the brewers wouldn't have won the game with a 9-2 lead if CC hadn't come back out for the 9th? if so, i don't think this team is ready for october.

i'll leave alone the notion that cc won't mind being hurt as long he gets paid.

D'Amico's one good year said...

Dear WV-

Now, now, let's not lump all Brewer fans together. I personally hope for the best for CC after he leaves us this fall... But, on a selfish level, we traded for him for a rental, and I'll be damned if we don't squeeze every last drop out of him. That said... he should NOT have pitched the 9th last night. At all. It's an indictment of the Brewers bullpen that he did... that and Special Ned.

AP said...

WV, HE HASN"T BEEN HURT YET, AND HE HAS NO HISTORY OF INJURIES!

I can't really say it more plainly than that. Harden gets pulled early because the guy is made of glass (not saying Sheets isn't either). Dempster gets pulled early because he's a converted reliever and stamina is an issue. Zambrano gets pulled early because he's been getting rocked lately. They all get pulled early compared to us because OUR BULLPEN IS TERRIBLE! (See, July 3rd). There is no comparison on your team to CC....plain....and...simple. Not Z, not Dumpster, not Prior, not anyone.

Is Halladay an injury risk too, or would like every team in baseball want that guy? He throws CG's all the time. Again, your like kind of right, but the degree that you are taking this fake "concern" for CC to is just dumb.

He pitches=we win. If he gets hurt, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. If he gets paid, he's happy no matter what the outcome. If the Crew is in the postseason, Brewer fans could give a rip. Please enlighten me as to what my outlook on this should be other than that?

Wrigleyville said...

my post on maiming and future years is purely hyperbole.

but anonymous (not sure if it is THE anonymous) tells me at wv23 that i can't worry about brewers decisions any more, so i'm going to go home and contemplate TOOTBLANs.

AP said...

....and AGAIN I agree with DOGY that CC in the 9th last night was dumb. I didn't like it last night, and I don't like it today.

Wrigleyville said...

you're right, AP. there is no reason to rest your ace with a seven-run lead and he's already over 100 pitches. that's foolish. no major league bullpen should be counted on to protect that lead. that's ridiculous of me to think so. silly wrigleyville.

as to why i'm not worried about halladay, i'm watching NL central games and care about NL central games. i'm sure i could also question cricket decisions in india, but i'm not really paying attention to those.

you are not right about stamina being an issue with dempster. he's been fine.

you are not right about when z was pulled. he was lifted early before he started getting hit in the last two games.

D'Amico's one good year said...

WV-

The fallacy in your logic is the insinuation that the Brewers have a Major League Class bullpen. They don't.

And WV; don't go bye-bye! ... Conversation is good, even if we have to deal with (other people's) idiocy every once in a while.

BTW- Brad made an excellent point about Sabathia's post-season ERA... I would rather we rest CC in a near-certain win so he can still throw effectively in the post season (knock on wood/prior to saying it).

AP said...

Well, I guess that means that at least I was right that Harden is made of glass.

Oh, and here's an article from Cubs.com. See if you can find the part where Ryan Dempster himself says that stamina is an issue. (Hint, it's the 7th little paragraph)
http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080228&content_id=2395404&vkey=spt2008news&fext=.jsp&c_id=chc

So I'm kind of going to pretend that I am right about Dempster & stamina. I got that article by putting "Dempster Stamina" into Google, and like 12 thousand articles came up.

And for the last time, IT WAS WRONG TO LET CC PITCH THE 9TH! It was, however, not wrong for him to pitch his previous games.

Maddog said...

This is the fist time I've commented here as Wrigleyville gave me the link. I'll just say that I don't particularly care about pitch counts. That's not to say that I think leaving a pitcher in with a 7 run lead to throw 130 pitches is a good idea. It isn't. It never will be.

The purpose of the bullpen is simple: protect leads. All starting pitchers tire as the game goes on and become less effective the deeper into games that they pitch. Their velocity drops because they're tired, the secondary stuff doesn't move as much, etc.

You should always take your starting pitcher out the moment he becomes as effective as the average reliever in your bullpen. Usually after the 6th inning the bullpen is a better bet than your starter and it provides you with an at-bat or two from someone other than a pitcher.

As for what Ned's doing with CC, I think it's shortsighted, but it's also being done because the Brewers know they aren't going to re-sign him so they really have nothing to lose. Any injury is likely to occur down the road rather than immediately. That's just how it works so the Brewers are putting stress on his arm that doesn't need to be there knowing he's not in their long-term plans.

That's irresponsible on their part, but it is, in a way, also responsible. CC no doubt gives the Brewers a better chance of winning than almost anyone in the Brewers bullpen and he's not someone the team is counting on in the 2nd half of 2009 or 2010 so why not use perhaps the best pitcher in baseball as much as possible?

The answer to that question is because it's damaging to Sabathia, but if he were concerned about it, he'd ask out of games.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

AP said...

because it's damaging to Sabathia, but if he were concerned about it, he'd ask out of games

Right on Mad Dog. That's a solid synopsis of it right there. It's in both parties best interest is my opinion, damaging or not.

D'Amico's one good year said...

I agree that CC is party to all of the CGs he's been pitching... But a good manager doesn't let his players dictate to him. As I said earlier, I hope the Brewers get as much as they can out of Sabathia, but I think we're all in agreeance that last night was a waste of pitches we may need further down the road.

AP said...

Yes, yes DOGY that's what a good manager would do. However, Yost has been letting the players dictate to him all year long. (I haven't bashed Yost in a while, so forgive me Yost fans)

When Fielder and Braun were batting 3-4, it was those guys who complained about it and it was reversed, it wasn't Ned's decision.

When Hardy was unhappy in the #7 spot, he complained to Ned about it. It wasn't Ned's decision. Now JJ bats #2.

Ned didn't make a decision on the McClung/Bush platoon thing for an awful long time either. He didn't do anything after the Fielder/Parra thing either.

My point is that this team is largely managing themselves anyways, so I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that CC is dictating SOME of these decisions. It's possibly also why Kendall plays everyday, and Rivera sits. It's more money for Kendall if he vests his option, and Yost doesn't want to be the bad guy. I think there's at least enough examples there to consider it a possibility. Still, if they keep winning Yost can do whatever he wants in my book.

Brads Echo said...

CC does have a post season ERA of 7.17 (21.1 inning).

MAYBE HE DOES WEAR DOWN AT THE END OF THE YEAR AND NEEDS ALL THE REST HE CAN GET RIGHT NOW.

D'Amico's one good year said...

Sir-

You've elaborated on my point; Ned is a "players coach", and most of the issues we raise about him are due to the fact that he's too busy failing at managing out of a paper bag to manage our team... In addition to that, he's an arrogant jackass who condescends and dismisses any questioning of "his" choices.


That said... who would you replace him with that's availible?

D'Amico's one good year said...

PS- I don't mean replace him RIGHT NOW, but eventually... (after the season?)

garcia said...

DOGY,

Replace him with the paper bag you were talking about. He sounds smart and cheap.

D'Amico's one good year said...

It would have more of a spine 'twards the players, and wouldn't be such a wind-bag.

I'm fired, BTW.

AP said...

Nobody. He's ours, and it is what it is. We're winning, and he hasn't been that bad so I'm not really saying get rid of Yost. Just saying, he's done this with guys before so that's potentially why CC is throwing so damn much. That's all. I've just really hated the way he's managed since game #2 of the Padres series. As far as I know there are no replacements, but that's what Melvin and Attanasio get paid to do.

D'Amico's one good year said...

I agree. But good teams get the personel they need to get better, be it a player or a coach or a hot-dog vendor. Ned helped get the team to a better place, but now that they're there, he seems overmatched.

AP said...

Well then he's going to have to pick up his game in the same way that he's been asking CC to do, yes? IMHO, he has shown improvement this year, and we are winning after all, so I don't want to sound like I'm throwing him under the bus. With that said, he's got room for more improvement. If he would just work on improving his press conferences and nothing else the public's opinion of him would be much different.

D'Amico's one good year said...

I actually agree wholeheartedly with that statement... Which makes me sad. I admit that a great deal of my distaste for him comes from the fact that he's a jackass in the "jock/ex-jock" vein... I just can't stand him; there doesn't seem to be a thoughtful or humble bone in his body.

Goldy said...

I'm all for good debate on the site, but man, this just seems kind of pointless. In 2 days nobady will care about this issue and we will be talking about what mystery injury Sheets has or something like that.

I think the key topic of conversation should be about how fucked this team is if Braun is out for a while.

And Sabathia could have been out of that game at 120 pitches if our ass hat of a shortstop can make a routine play.

AP said...

Well, Goldy they should DL Braun then and stop dicking him around. Now is as good a time as any.

Good point on Hardy's error also. Forgot about that. Hopefully he gets that stuff out of his system now....

Wrigleyville said...

rob neyer says:

I don't know anything about Wrigleyville23, but he (or she) has some solid points about CC Sabathia throwing 130 pitches last night.

Sabathia's got as many complete games this season as Johan Santana has in his career. He's got more this season than Jake Peavy's got in his career. He's got twice as many complete games this season as Felix Hernandez has in his career. I find it all rather thrilling.

130 pitches, though? I know the Brewers really can't care too much about Sabathia's future, since they traded their No. 1 prospect for him and they're going to have him for just two or three months.

But 20 pitches in a ninth inning that began with a seven-run lead?

Doesn't that seem a little extreme? If everything goes according to plan (and the current playoff odds), won't the Brewers need a fresh Sabathia in October? Remember, this is a guy who, in his last three postseason starts last year, struck out 14 hitters and walked 13, and almost single-handedly kept the Indians from reaching the World Series.

Now, I certainly can't prove that Sabathia was fatigued during that ALCS, and in fact I think he probably wasn't. But why take that chance if you don't have to? And when the score is 9-2 in the ninth inning, you definitely don't have to.

D'Amico's one good year said...

Ding.

Goldy said...

"But 20 pitches in a ninth inning that began with a seven-run lead?"

I agree that he probably should not have gone out to pitch the 9th. Let CC exit on his first sacrifice bunt since 2001.

But seriously, anybody who watched the 9th last night would not have made that comment.

First batter is out in 1 pitch, second batter singles in a 2 pitch AB. Third batter hits what should have been a game ending DP ball in 3 pitches.If Hardy wasn't such a turd, Sabathia would have been out of the 9th in 6 pitches and 117 for the game and this debate isn't happening.

Granted, there should have been somebody ready to go at this point, but there wasn't. Moving to the Berkman at bat, Mota was the other option. Even with a 7-run lead, no Brewer fan wanted to see Mota in there. Sabathia was the best option for that AB.

AP said...

Well said Goldy......

Wrigleyville said...

oh, it was a clusterf*** of 20 pitches, but still ... 20 pitches.

i really think we're all violently disagreeing, other than anonymous, who seems to think all of the cubs have AIDS.

Wrigleyville said...

er, "violently agreeing," i should say.

D'Amico's one good year said...

The Cubs don't have AIDS?!?!

But seriously; I'm way more worried about our Kosher Killer and his ribs... MMM, ribs...

D'Amico's one good year said...

BTW- I love heavy comment days!

Wrigleyville said...

i'm always happy to help with hevy comment days.

one other way to get heavy comment days: say miller park's roof closes slowly.

Wrigleyville said...

heavy. i can't type.

D'Amico's one good year said...

I'll never forget the game I went to where it was raining, the roof was closed, and I still got soaked.

I may be the only Brewer fan I know that misses County Stadium... It seemed like the ushers were nicer, you stand in the bleachers and not be told to sit down...

AP said...

That's because if you stood up at County, you weren't blocking anyone's view.

D'Amico's one good year said...

True, true.

I guess I just loved it for its imperfections. Probably the same reason I have such a soft spot for those mediocre (at best) Cirillo/Burnitz/Vina era Brewers, and why I wear my Germanic lettering hat more than the others (that and I don't want to get my other ones messed up...)

Maddog said...

As for Sabathia's 7.17 ERA in the postseason, we're talking about all of 4 starts and 21.1 innings pitched. Furthermore, that includes one awful start against Boston on October 12, 2007 in which he pitched 4.1 innings, allowed 7 hits, walked 5 and allowed 8 earned runs. He has a 4.76 ERA in the other 3 starts he has. His biggest problem in the postseason has been his control. It's been terrible.

But again, 4 starts. Small sample size for sure.

To give you an idea how useless 4 starts is, Sabathia's first 6 starts this year left him with an ERA near 8. Many were worried, but you can't overreact to small sample sizes.

Sabathia might not be any good in the postseason this year, but you could say the same thing about Webb or Santana and anybody else. In such a few innings, anything is possible. It's not worth worrying about if I were a Brewers fan.

AP said...

I like Maddog's opinions......

WV's take a little longer for me to come around on, but dammit if TOOTBLAN isn't fantastic as well.

Maddog said...

I'll add one last comment here. The time to stretch your pitchers out is when you have a big lead. The stress is less and we know stress has a huge impact on a pitcher. While I agree with Wrigleyville and everyone else here that there was no reason for him to be in the game in the 9th inning, 20 pitches with a 7 run lead isn't anything to worry about. I'd be a lot more worried about those same 20 pitches if it were a 3-2 game and I'd have a lot more to complain about in a situation like that.

As I mentioned earlier, at that point in the game your average reliever is as effective as even an ace caliber starter so you have a better chance of holding a lead with your bullpen than a starter in a close game like that. In a blowout it doesn't really matter because the effort from the pitcher is much more free and easy than in a close game.

D'Amico's one good year said...

I'm intrigued and would like to subscribe to your newsletter, Maddog...

The only quarrel I have has been stated previously; that being that I wouldn't say that the Brewers bullpen is that of average MLB quality. It's better than last year, but then so is this cup of warm piss I found.

D'Amico's one good year said...

Side note- What's the Chuckie Hacks record for comments on a post?

Wrigleyville said...

you won't like all of maddog's opinions, ap.

Goldy said...

I'm thinking this is a record with 50-plus.

D'Amico's one good year said...

There's nothing wrong with differing opinions as long as they're thought out. I find it slightly disconcerting (but not shocking) that some of the more measured and reasonable opinions in the comments come from fans of other teams. The reason is obvious, though...

Personally, I'm just happy that the only major sports team I really care about is finally relevant again.

Matt said...

54 (now 55) comments to a story with the "word" Pwnded in the headline.

Good times.

Matt said...

Errr...Pwned.

I can't even spell made up words.

D'Amico's one good year said...

I like Pwnded better, actually...

Here's a question- Who is your most irrationally favorite player? Someone who was just awful, but you liked and followed him anyway. Any sport. For me, it is Derrick Mayes, former Packers wideout, or Wes Obermueller.

Matt said...

Rickie Weeks

D'Amico's one good year said...

Oh yeah, and Jeff D'Amico (obviously.)

D'Amico's one good year said...

HA!

Goldy said...

Mike Rivera

Goldy said...

Historically, I always like Darrell Thompson when he was on the Packers.

D'Amico's one good year said...

Jason Caffey. Please kill me.

Goldy said...

Since the Astros are in town, I might as well bring this up. When I played little league, the crappy Union Grove team was called the Astros. This would have been the late 80's so i think the MLB astros were through using their creamsicle unis. However, the UG little league team wore the multi-colored striped unis, but they were green stripes. WTF is up with that. If you are going to wear that, at least go with the original.

AP said...

I've had lots.....Matt Bowen springs to mind as one. On this team I stick up for Mike Cameron a lot.

D'Amico's one good year said...

That's a touch odd... licensing issues, maybe? Or perhaps the colours had something to do with Union Grove?

D'Amico's one good year said...

See, but Cameron doesn't suck... I've been fighting that fight with my friends. Cameron may be the best CF the Crew has had since Hamilton.

AP said...

Agreed, but some people just see the batting average and they remember the 1 major error in Houston.

D'Amico's one good year said...

And those people are dumb.

I don't know, man... Hart's significantly more worrisome to me than Cameron.

Maddog said...

The only quarrel I have has been stated previously; that being that I wouldn't say that the Brewers bullpen is that of average MLB quality. It's better than last year, but then so is this cup of warm piss I found.

I think any time you get rid of Turnbow your bullpen is going to improve somewhat, but is there really a difference between the 2008 pen and the 2007 one? Admittedly, I don't follow the Brewers as most of you do, but it seems to me that no lead is safe with anyone in the group that is currently out there.

Torres has been a blessing for you Brewers fans and has at least helped stabilize the pen in that you know who is pitching the 9th and it's in good hands. But the rest of it seems awfully shaky to me.

One of the few things we (people smarter than I) can attribute postseason success to is the late-innings relievers and strikeouts by pitchers. The Brewers pitchers definitely miss enough bats, but there are going to be several teams in the playoffs that have better bullpens. When you combine that with the subpar defense on the field, it's going to make winning a short series more difficult than it would be otherwise.

That's not to say you can't or won't do it. I have no idea. Nobody does. I think we know which teams are better and expect those teams to win and they certainly have a better chance of doing so than the other teams, but the fact is that a short series is nothing more than a small sample and just about anything can happen in that small a sample.

What is your opinions of Ned Yost around here? I know many Cubs fans, including myself, considered him the Cubs MVP in 2007. The Cubs are a significantly better club this year than last so Ned hasn't had that kind of impact, but are you all waiting for the day that the Brewers get rid of him? Kind of like most Cubs fans are not looking forward to that day?

D'Amico's one good year said...

Actually, your first paragraph made my point; with Torres and without Turnbow, the Brewers pen is better this year than last. That said, it's still not good. Torres is, in reality, a quality "hold" reliever, not a dominating closer.

As to your question about Special Ned, we addressed that earlier. The cliffnotes version is this- We don't like him, he's too much of a players coach/jackass, but at this point there's nobody and no way to replace him.